Sorry Kanhaiya, We Can’t Agree With You On 1984: Responses from Shehla Rashid and Sucheta De

Here are two responses on Kanhaiya’s statement differentiating between 1984 and 2002. One from JNUSU Vice-President and the Other from Sucheta De, a prominent leader of All India Students’ Association

Shehla Rashid:

Been getting a lot of calls from journalists and common students regarding the statement made by Comrade Kanhaiya on the 1984 vs. 2002 issue. Friends, I was not present at the event where he reportedly made the statement, as I was with the JNUSU delegation to NHRC on HCU & Calicut issue till late evening. I’m not sure whether his statement is being correctly reported, but if you ask my position on the issue, I would just say that both 1984 and 2002 were acts of state sponsored violence and we must not draw contrasts between two human tragedies. We have equally spoken up against state sponsored violence, be it by the Left front government in Bengal, the Congress government or the BJP governments. That is what makes us “Left”. The survivors of 1984 state sponsored communal pogrom deserve all our support and we must refrain from making any statement that undermines their struggle for justice. In 1984 also, the JNU campus not only opposed the violence, but even sheltered some of the Sikhs who were running for cover. We have spoken out against Gujarat as vocally as against Hashimpura and Singur-Nandigram. We cannot prejudge the case and give a clean chit to the state, when there has been no credible investigation into the whole affair. The survivors of the 1984 pogrom are demanding precisely that– a fair investigation into the role of the state. Just as the then Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi endorsed the 2002 pogrom by saying that “each action has an equal and opposite reaction”, the then Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi endorsed the 1984 killings by saying that “when a mighty tree falls, the earth shakes”. One can’t discount the role of the state on 1984 pogrom because it was in reaction to the murder of the then Prime Minister, Indira Gandhi, which itself was triggered by the state brutalities under Operation Blue Star. We must not be apologetic about 1984 massacre, but must unequivocally condemn it. We shouldn’t leave this space for the right-wing to milk, because, while the right-wing pretends to be concerned about 1984, they are actually only shielding Modi over 2002, and nothing else. Ask them if they oppose the Operation Blue Star itself, and they will have no answers. While we stand united in the students’ struggles against fascism, we must keep healthy debate and discussion alive, as that is what characterises the Left.

Sucheta De:

Sorry Kanhaiya, can’t agree. Left and progressive student movements that have emerged today in India, will not give a clean chit to congress for the 1984 pogrom. Why should a left leader try to defend the congress government’s role in the anti-sikh riots, something that even Rahul Gandhi and his party can not defend?

To say that 1984 riots were mob frenzy and not state sponsored would only justify the ‘big tree falls’ theory regarding sikh massacre.

We belong to different streams of the left. Earlier also differences on several issues have emerged. During the course of anti-fascist struggle we have maintained our differences and moved ahead with unity- but the stand that you have taken regarding the 1984 pogrom is very wrong and does injustice to the thousands of innocent people killed during those riots. According to the testimonies recorded by the Misra commission, Kamal Nath minister of commerce during UPA government,led a mob at Gurudwara Rakabganj, where two sikhs were burnt to death. Sajjan Kumar, Jagdish Tytler, Kamal Nath and many others- you very well know which party they belong to. Yet you say that 1984 was mob frenzy ??

Kusum Lata Mittal who was part of a two member committee constituted to look into the role of police officers in 1984 riots had indicted 72 police officers, including 6 IPS officers- yet you say that 1984 was mob frenzy and not state sponsored ??
And also regarding emergency, who doesn’t know that emergency was evoked to silence dissent against Indira Gandhi’s government- BJP is doing the same.

What we need to do is to stand by the survivors of the anti Sikh pogrom, rather than giving congress a clean chit.

  • Skeptic

    May
    be another point to look at it is to nullify the constant excuse the
    BJP-RSS give to promote Islamophobia. I believe that the sikh community
    is not under any more threat as the muslim community is. I have seen how
    my friends and neighbours talk and
    think about muslims. Anirban Bhattacharya was suggested by delhi police
    to blame Umar Khalid for everything. See how heinous, how pathetic our
    society has become towards muslims. The reason I have a strong attitude
    against gujarat riots is because it constantly gets reinforced by acts
    like akhlakh’s mob lynching. The sikh community unlike muslim community on the other hand today
    is well respected and well assimilated in the mainstream. So, we need
    to check our priorities too. Yes, we need to be objectively correct but
    objectivity itself is not enough. We have to be strategically correct
    too. The BJP camp is smart enough to downplay the gujarat riots. And
    they have been successful in erasing it from public memory. Furthermore,
    each time when the gujarat riot debate comes up, they are able to
    nullify its effect by bringing up the sikh riot issue. Also, they manage
    to initiate a mental game where we as citizens practise equivocation
    and this equivocation further destroys the problem at hand. BJP-RSS
    wants us to equivocate both events (Gujarat and sikh riots) and to end
    both the chapters. Sikh riot chapter has already ended. Sikhs do not live in fear anymore and congress has been rendered powerless. So, Its not a
    burning question anymore, but the gujarat riot is still a burning case
    because its constantly being nurtured by RSS. So, I believe that
    whenever we equivocate both events, we are falling in the trap, in the
    mind game of RSS. Similarly, the dalit question is equivocated with
    reservation policy. These are strategic mind games that we have to understand.

    • Hindusthani

      Absolutely right. You have written an incredibly perceptive post. However, the distinction that Kanhaiya tried to make is too fine for normal people to understand especially those who have suffered during the 1984 riots and hence it will only help the media to work it against Kanhaiya and what he stands for.

    • gk

      You cunningly hide the fact that scores of innocent people were burnt in Godhra train by Jihadi mobs. Gujarat rioters even to the level of minister have been tried and sentenced. Hundreds of rioters both muslim and Hindu have died in police firing. Whether something is a burning question or not is irrelevant. Where is justice. Who was jailed for Sikh riots after 30 years. So you must be spending your energy on Sikh riots where justice has not been served yet.
      It is funny you say people should not talk about Sikh riots because it has been a long time, it has been forgotten and people have moved on. But you make the same case for Gujarat saying people are trying to move on and forget and this should not be allowed. Did Kanhaia who supports mass murderers like Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot talk about the genocide and ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Hindus ?

      • Skeptic

        1) People are trying to forget Gujarat riot and want to move on? Where is the evidence? Akhlaq’s murder and beef bans and related lynching stories rejuvinate the case.
        2) Stalin killed the Nazis who intruded into the party only to destabilize the working class struggle. Nothing wrong in that. Its far better than Americans who killed 160000 people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
        3) You talk about cleansing of Kashmiri pundits. Then you must also talk about the ongoing crimes of brahmins for thousands of years. You must explain why even today dalits are beaten, burnt alive, raped and forced to do manual scavanging. lakhs of dalits are still involved in manual scavanging and no body seems to care about such reservations in work. I think brahmins and kshatriyas must be forced to do manual scavanging for atleast 10 years.

        • gk

          1) I am quoting you “The BJP camp is smart enough to downplay the gujarat riots. And they have been successful in erasing it from public memory.” I was just pointing the irony where forgetting the past is an excuse to not talk about Sikh riots while it is the excuse to talk about Gujarat riots. The logical flaw in leftist stance is that they are ignorant of the anti-Jihadi sentiment among Hindus who have given lives of millions of “lower class/caste” Hindus fighting the Jihadi cult for many centuries. You are blinded by an imported ideology so much that you cannot see the misery inflicted upon them throughout the past millennia. So you must first address the root cause of Jihad and its effects of rape/murder/slave trade etc on Hindu society. If communists cannot hold pork parties why are they bent on holding beef parties. Why don’t you try to prove your courage against the Jihadis.
          2)Lenin was sent into Russia by the German intelligence to create civil unrest in Russia so that it withdraws from WW1. Much of bolsheviks were Jews who wanted to murder and purge the Russian ruling class for the anti-Jewish pogroms in the late 19th centuries. Millions of poor were systematically killed through drought and famine due to the policies of the communist party. It is a fact. Americans doing something wrong does not justify Communist mass murder, anyways Russia and US were allies in WWII.
          3) Varna is four and was not instituted by Brahmins who were mostly ‘poor’ by modern capitalist’s standards. Missionaries concocted the story that Brahmins and Kshatriyas invented manual scavenging when the truth is some people have been discriminated for doing unclean jobs throughout history in Europe,Asia, Africa and also in India. Harappa/Mohenjadaro had flush toilets, so manual scavenging is a case of decline in Indian society that must be addressed. British invented the underground sewage system that requires men to swim in filth and also open toilet system. Villagers in south India do not need manual scavengers, as they have take nature’s call far away from home in the open. Whatever/whoever be the cause, communists/liberals did not invent technology in the last 70 years to address the problem. What are the railways in Westbengal and Kerala doing ? I am all for eradicating manual scavenging but don’t understand what one achieves by imitating the Jihadi rulers who forced the kshatriyas to be manual scavengers.

          • Skeptic

            1) BJP is getting successful in erasing it from public memory (especially middle class) through media while its major progam of ethnic cleansing is still ongoing, which is however an old program. Golwalker said: “To keep up the purity of the Race and its culture, Germany shocked the
            world by her purging the country of the Semitic Races – the Jews. Race
            pride at its highest has been manifested here. Germany has also shown
            how well nigh impossible it is for Races and cultures, having
            differences going to the root, to be assimilated into one united whole, a
            good lesson for us in Hindusthan to learn and profit by. Ever since that evil day, when Moslems first landed in Hindustan, right
            up to the present moment, the Hindu Nation has been gallantly fighting
            on to take on these despoilers. The Race Spirit has been awakening.
            2) I am an atheist and I am against Islam as well. The reason I focus on hinduism more because its particularly less addressed and less challenged. Also, I my family is a hindu family and I have closely observed the dirt in hindu religion, so, I feel more responsible to expose the dirt of my own community. Similarly the atheists from muslim community are exposing their own community’s dirt. As the saying goes, “charity begins from home”.

            Communists of Central Asia during the Stalin Era helped erase the dirt of Islam and elevated the women from draconian sharia laws prevalent in Central Asia.
            Anna Louise Strong in her book The Stalin Era (1956) said: “The change in women’s status was one of the important social changes in all parts of the USSR. The Revolution gave women legal and political equality; industrialization provided the economic base in equal pay. But in every village women still had to fight the habits of centuries. News came of one village in Siberia, for instance, where, after the collective farms gave women their independent incomes, the wives ‘called a strike’ against wife-beating and smashed that time-honored custom in a week. ‘The men all jeered at the first woman we elected to our village soviet,’ a village president told me, ‘but at the next election we elected six women and now it is we who laugh.’ I met twenty of these women presidents of villages in 1928 on a train in Siberia, bound for a Women’s Congress in Moscow. For most it was their first trip by train and only one had ever been out of Siberia. They had been invited to Moscow ‘to advise the government’ on the demands of women; their counties elected them to go. The toughest fight of all for women’s freedom was in Central Asia. Here, women were chattels, sold in early marriage and never thereafter seen in public without the hideous “paranja,” a long black veil of woven horsehair which covered the entire face, hindering breathing and vision. Tradition gave
            husbands the right to kill wives for unveiling; the mullahs—Moslem priests—supported this by religion. Russian women brought the first message of freedom; they set up child welfare clinics where native women unveiled in each other’s presence. Here, the rights of women and the evils of the veil were discussed. The Communist Party brought pressure on its members to permit their wives to unveil. When I first visited Tashkent, in 1928, a conference of Communist
            women was announcing: ‘Our members in backward villages are being violated, tortured and murdered. But this year we must finish the hideous veil; this must be the historic year.’ Shocking incidents gave point to this resolution. A girl from a Tashkent school gave her vacation to agitating for women’s rights in her home village. Her dismembered body was sent back to school in a cart bearing the words: ‘That for your women’s freedom.’ Another woman had refused the attentions of a landlord and married a Communist peasant; a gang of eighteen men, stirred up by the landlord, violated her in the eighth month of pregnancy and threw her body in the river. Soviet power used many weapons for the freeing of women. , Education, law all had their place. Big public trials were held of husbands who murdered wives; the pressure of the new education confirmed judges who gave the death sentence for what old custom had not considered crime. The most important weapon for freeing women was, as in Russia proper, the new industrialization. (Pg. 40-42).

            So, as far as I understand, communists were the first to attack evils of Islamic laws and were the first to address equality of women.

            As far as my activity against Islam is concerned, I have been vocal against it in a number of forums and with many of my muslim friends.

            2) Lenin was sent into Russia by the German intelligence to create civil unrest in Russia to overthrow Tsar. Nothing wrong in that. Subhas Bose joined hands with Japanese Tojo to overthrow British empire. Would you suspect Bose’s intentions? Sending the ruling, aristocratic class to labor camps and stripping them of their luxuries is nothing wrong too. Expropriators must be expropriated (Marx).

            Russia and US were allies in WWII only to stop Nazis. For many years the allies considered Stalin as their opponent

            3) Manual Scavanging is reality even today. Even today upper castes force the lower castes to do manual scavenging. I have seen how hindu upper castes still follow untouchability. But, I have not seen RSS vehemently opposing these things.

          • gk

            1) BJP did not erase anything, people still know. Communists have always distorted history, by not talking about Godhra as it would make Gujarat riots reactionary. Only the communists don’t talk about the 50000 political murders in West Bengal and Kerala. The illegal murders of innocent poor through the Maoist people’s courts. I am not RSS and even RSS would not agree with what Golwalker says. Even Darwin predicted that all colored races will be exterminated in future. Have you discarded Darwinian evolution ? Besides much water has flown under the bridge since then. Jihadis have successfully attained pure land aka ‘Pak’istan for themselves. Now who is racist here. A minority that seeks to impose Jaziya, slavery, rape, apostasy, murder will always be detested. What happened in Mogul rule is being repeated by ISIS. What more proof do you need ?
            2) Mass murder happened in Russia, millions of people starved to death in both USSR and China under communism. That cannot be airbrushed out of history just because women got rights for the first time in central Asia. What were Russians doing in Central Asia ? No Azadi needed there ? I don’t see CPI/CPIM trying to liberate Kashmiri muslim women ? What is stopping Umar Khalid and his friends for attacking muslim men now ? Communism has ended in Russia,also China is going back to Confucian principles. But Jihadi Islam is still surviving, it is threatening ‘liberal socialist’ Europe. Problem with Marx is that he was enjoying a life without labour, exploited a housemaid till death without pay and is alleged to have fathered a child he seldom recognized. He was funded by his mate Engels another German aristocrat. Did Marx work in any labour camp ? Did Stalin, Mao and others work in labour camp ? why communists need one man dictatorship ? Can’t they trust their fellow comrades to arrive at a consensus.
            3) RSS is anti-casteist and is striving for Hindu unity. Hindu solidarity must drive out social ills through harmonious cooperation rather than through political murders. If Communists wanted to agitate against manual scavenging, RSS will definitely support.

          • Skeptic

            1) Who destroys history we all know. BJP RSS has been responsible for fictionalising text books. How many people were killed by Ranvir sena? RSS has never criticised Golwalker publicly. ‘Darwin predicted that all colored races will be exterminated in future’ that is not Darwinian evolution. Please do study what is evolution. Savarkar himself supported the two nation theory
            2)Millions of people starved in Russia but not because stalin wanted. Show me the proof that it was a policy.Russians were bringing azadi in central asia. Has Kanhaiya, Khalid and Cpim got powers to liberate kashmiri women? why not AFSPA doing anything about it? Give proofs about Marx’s allegations. Stalin was not a dictator. read anna louise strong. Read about Paris commune. That was only democracy we have ever had.
            3) I have not seen RSS doing anything to eradicate caste.

          • gk

            1) Indian text books written by marxists are the ones distorting history. They are the ones being used for education. Ranvir sena came first ? Naxalites are killing the same people they say they are fighting for. Golwalker was a man of his times, race was a factor in pre-holocaust European thought and world was cheering Germany. You seemed to know Darwinian evolution better than Darwin when you reject Darwin’s own prediction. The second title or caption for ‘Origin of species’ was ‘Preservation of favoured races in the struggle for life’. Marx dedicated his book to Darwin. So much for ‘intellectual Marxism’.
            2)History your favourite judge showed Central Asia did not like the Azaadi being with USSR. Soviet archives that have been opened have plenty of evidence to implicate Stalin. Why does CPIM need special powers to liberate women ? What stops you in Kashmir to hold pork parties, organize song, dance, booze, ‘Kiss of Love’ and what not. Yes Stalin/Mao/Pol Pot/Castro were not dictators, Modi is according to communist logic. Marx had Helen Demuth as a maid through dowry as ‘permanent loan’ so he did not pay her wages (???). More at http://www.nytimes.com/1983/03/14/opinion/what-marx-hid.html
            3) RSS wants to remove castes. But that is not practical and most Hindus don’t agree. Just as so called ‘tribals’ and ‘dalits’ want to retain their identity. What needs to end is casteism, discrimination and social oppression.

          • Skeptic

            1) which portions are distorted by historians? Bring them up. Also show proofs of your own versions of history of intersteller planes, plastic surgery of ancient times etc. How many history books RSS has produced which have shown the marathi loot of bengal? Ranvir sena the name might be new but its intent to suppress lower castes has been ancient. We all condemn race theories today. Why is it so difficult for you to condemn Golwalkar’ s concepts. No biologist today ascribe to the race concept, even if it was written by darwin. All biologists agree to the concept of speciation and all humans are single species. Any discussion of species within species i.e. race is unscientific as well as dangerous. Even the phrase “survival of fittest” has been discarded by serious biologists and is not considred an evolutionary theory.
            2) Show me the records of soviet union which you talk about. We have been abusing Islam as well and its up to us when we will have what kind of show against Islam.
            3) RSS does not want to eradicate caste. Its proven by their indifference towards atrocities to lower castes. It has also not condemned the abusive laws of manusmriti.

          • gk

            Your entire response is an example of the distorted history spread by Marxists. Hold on, Indian Marxists like other colonized sepoys look upto Europe. You always cited Russia, was there never a cooperative/collaborative social experiment in Bharat in the many thousand years of its existence ? All communist social experiments of last century have failed. But you still sell the superstitious prophetic belief that there will be a Marxist classless utopia in the future. What has RSS got to do with anything. Hindu culture make up to 80% of Bharat and it is being denigrated unfairly. So every Hindu, RSS or no RSS has a problem with this distortion. When did you teach about the Mahajanapadas, the Kudavolai system of Cholas, the swayamvara empowering women, Arthasasthra’s notion of welfare state, self-reliant villages where everyone got a share of the produce, widespread schools for literacy in almost every village. Of course you would not have heard about them, because you think some Christian who believes the world is only 6000 years old will date when Vedas,upanishads, ithihasas were written. You believe without any evidence that a mythical Aryan race conquered and enslaved the Dravidian race. But you will not accept race when it doesn’t suit you. You claim there was no India before 1947, but claim some people were ‘moolnivasi’ of Bharat and somebody came from outside. Why does private property rules come into play when mythical Dravidian race is involved ? Why is okay for Jihadi invaders to murder, enslave millions of Hindus. No race card at play then ? Where is it taught that Pre-British India had almost 25% of GDP. Where is it taught that British systematically destroyed native economy, industry, shipping, agriculture, killed millions in artificial famines believing in Malthusian theories, trafficked opium to destroy China and looted its natural resources. Where are you teaching Sati was restricted to just few castes and that too was on a women’s volition. Where are you teaching many jatis allowed widow remarriage ? You want to sell Marxism, so you want to show Bharat only as a backward society that was liberated by Europeans like British and hence needs more European ideologies like Marxism. If you know real history, you will know Marxism is another prophetic cult that is a distorted derivative of Zoroastrian, Abrahamic beliefs. British learnt nose reconstruction from India and has been documented in their medical journals , Susruta, Charaka has documented many medical procedures. Do you ever question the claims made by Western historians about Greeks, Romans, Sumerians and Marx ? Egypt and Bharat have been left out by European/Marxist propaganda history called ‘linear human progress’.
            2) Soviet archives are not available online as far as I know . I also don’t have access neither can I get you access. But many works have been published by others who had access already. European progressives have already capitulated to Jihadi invasion and have invited the proverbial Trojan horse. I don’t see communists standing up to Islam in West Bengal, Kashmir, Kerala until now. Because your violence will be returned with interest.
            3) Manu smiriti was never a central law code in pre colonial Bharat for Hindus. Manusmriti has some good and some bad, the bad can be condemned and even Manu smriti does not claim it is a document that needs to be followed for eternity. I am not an RSS guy so I won’t speak for them, but their state position is anti-caste. But you will get to Islam when you want to, but you want to set deadlines for others ? How convenient ?

          • Skeptic

            Here is an example to show who are colonized sepoys http://thewire.in/2016/03/23/bhagat-singh-and-savarkar-a-tale-of-two-petitions-25657/ . No we do not always cite Russia. We also cite the famous Paris Commune. The Council of Paris Commune began to organise the public services essential for a city of
            two million residents. It also reached a consensus on certain policies
            that tended towards a progressive, secular, and highly democratic social democracy. Because the Commune met on fewer than sixty days in all, only a few decrees were actually implemented. These included:
            *Seperation of church and state;
            *remission of rents owed for the entire period of the siege (during which payment had been suspended);
            *abolition of night work in bakeries;
            *granting of pensions to the unmarried companions and children of national guardsmen killed in active service;
            *free return by pawnshops, of all workmen’s tools and household items, valued up to 20 francs, pledged during the siege;
            *postponement of commercial debt obligations, and the abolition of interest on the debts;
            *right of employees to take over an run an enterprise if it were deserted by its owner; the Commune, nonetheless, recognized the previous owner’s right to compensation;
            *prohibition of fines imposed by employers on their workmen.
            Women played an important role in both the initiation and the governance
            of the Commune.We are not superstitious about socialism because many times in history we did succeed in some form of socialism in many parts of the world like the one in Paris Commune. Since its a radical kind of society, naturally the reactionists have not liked it. Thats is why they have always killed such movements. The democratic paris commune was brutally destroyed by army. 30,000 commune members died and the rest were captured. In russia, the capitalist powers, the third Reich and the Tsarist members penetrated deep into the soviet system only to corrupt it inside-out, kill the wrong people and defame the system. So, socialism (not communism as it is yet to be reached) everywhere has been destroyed by monarchs, feudal lords and capitalists. So, no question of failing (you talk as if they were helped to survive all along).
            Swayamvara is not radical empowering of women because after marriage women were/are bound to leave their own house to live somewhere else permanently. Why should women tolerate such inequality? kautilya’s welfare state still talks maintains the system of monarchy. We are not in favor of small changes. We want the entire overhaul of the social relations. The means of production which where snatched from the working class must be returned back to the working class. They were never democratically owned by the monarchs (later by feudalists & capitalists. They were owned by the power of sword.
            We never believed that the world is only 6000 years old as we believe in science. You on the contrary believe in superstitions, in mythical gods and their stories. Even in those stories we find oppression, war, and exploitation (betting on draupadi, sita’s agnipariksha, destroying the talent of ekalavya etc.) Bhagat singh, a marxist has been the best fighter against the british. The establishment of Hindustan socialist republican association is a proof. The work of Raja Ram-mohan Roy, Ishwar Chandra Vidyasagar, Lalan Fakir, Tagore, Kazi Nazrul Islam etc. and their writings speak volumes about jati pratha, sati pratha, child marriage. Even today, thousands of upper caste hindus take lakhs of dowry dominantly and nobody is there to stop them. In bengal, dowry has almost ended. If anybody speak of dowry and found, he is sure to go to jail. But, I wonder what Ranvir Sena, Bajrang Dal, VHP has done anything to stop dowry.

            About ‘ If you know real history, you will know Marxism is another prophetic
            cult that is a distorted derivative of Zoroastrian, Abrahamic beliefs.
            British lea…..” I consider these thoughts processes as conspiracy theories
            2) I have already shown you that communists were the first to counter Islamic fundamentalism.
            3) Manusmriti is coded into the behaviors of people in loose forms. People’s daily practices are influenced by the mantras given by local temple priests, the astrologers, the tantriks etc. The daily practices of hindus that I have seen in my own family, in my neighbours and wherever I visit I see only hatred towards lower castes, dowry, suppression of women, and the elder members who practise them are all higher castes and who are also members of either bajrang dal or vhp or any of such sister organizations. So, I dont expect them to bring changes in Indian society. So, I reiterate that RSS and their sister organizations are not anti-caste but pro-caste. Yes, I accept that many hindu families have changed, they have become liberal minded, they have allowed their women to unveil, to mix up socially, to get well educated and get jobs etc. but they have become like that because of the western progressive education, not because of hindutva.

          • gk

            So savarkar’s petition shows that he was a sepoy ? He was in Kalapani for ten years so he tried to get out of it. After his release he was under house arrest in Ratnagiri. Was he working for the British ? How many communists actually supported Indian independence. You cannot make Bhagat singh as your mask. Savarkar went to jail for independance and was sentenced to Kalapani for 50 years. But I see communists asking for waiver of capital punishments for terrorists and other political murderers. So much for consistency. If you initiate and threaten violence, you will get that back. If you are going to kill people, then they will try to destroy you. Why should they let you ‘prosper’ ?
            Women go to husband’s house with or without swayamwara and that has nothing to do with equality. The point is freedom of women choosing her husband. Your entire philosophy is stuck in medieval romanticism of ‘universal human equality’ which is a myth. So nothing in human history will have to measure up to some falsehood. Men and women are equal only in a disarmed industrialised human hive. Men played a different significant role in the past and women lived with them then as they needed men’s protection (Each according to his abilities!!) in pre industrial society just as multiple generations shared living space. Even chimpanzees have an alpha male and few females. I am really wondering why dialectic materialism did not work out after many million years ? Poor chimpanzee females are waiting for a Marx chimpanzee perhaps to liberate them and establish chimpanzee equality.
            Hired labour gets paid and thats it . Nothing more is owed to him/her. If a monkey/rat/robot can do the job then the industrialist will use them and will not hire the labour. A human is born because of the choice of his/her parents and not the entire humanity. So feeding/clothing/livelihood are not the responsibility of entire humanity. That is the point of individual freedom. So nobody owes you anything. There is no brotherhood either. You cannot compel your brothers/relatives at gun-point to get what you want. Communist state do not have any free speech, freedom and are held together by gun. So how are Stalin/Mao more legitimate rulers of their subjects ? Monarchy in India needed consent of the people, otherwise the King’s life is at risk. I guess Stalin/Mao were wary of fellow comrades. You may not believe in 6000 year planet, but your entire history of India was created by such people and you believe that mythical Aryans came in 1500BC etc etc all of these are for accommodating christian timelines.
            Something you cannot experience can exist and again the ‘universal human equality’ argument doesn’t hold. Just as all communists are not as bright as Marx, all humans cannot have all experiences equally. You can call devatas as myths. I have no problem.So missioray propaganda spouted by you regarding puranas. In a supposed myth, a woman is shown as so chaste that Agni does not touch her. You may not value chastity but that does not mean the whole world have to give up on it. Gambling in mahabharata is always condemned and nobody is taking that as role model. Ekalvya was a Nishada prince (monarchy is ok ?) just like Nala. Every teacher has the right to select the student he wishes. Whatever Ekalvya learnt, he misused on a helpless dog. This proved he did not cultivate the mind but just technique. Such people are like terrorists who will only become mercenaries for others. Drona made a request, why did Ekalvya oblige ? Why are you blaming other but not Ekalvya for following Hindu tradition ? Nineteenth century India was a dark age for the subcontinent. Millions died, industries collapsed, famines and what not. In such conditions child marriage was an adaptation. By the way who are you to say when a boy/girl has to marry ? Marxists don’t seem to object if they make love however early they could ? There are many social problems, but that does not mean Marxism is the answer, because it is another superstition imitating the second coming of Christ.
            You are calling criticism of Marxism as conspiracy theories ? Really ? Indian Marxists are short on real fact, they just hurl Hinduphobic abuses that they learnt from missionaries. On the one hand you claim to be a great advocate of ‘History’ but refuse to rationally examine the roots of Marxism. Karl Marx was a Jew and Jew have recorded the “Mazdakite” movement in 4th or 5th century Persia which had all the ideals of communism. Zoroastrian religion has light and dark at war for eons in the heavens that is also played out in the world, the war will end in future with the victory for light and there will be lasting paradise on earth. Islam and Christianity similarly have a conflict between good and evil with a climactic war that will be won by good followed by heaven on earth. If you don’t see the parallels wrt the Marxist utopia in future after the world proletariat revolution, you must be cheating yourself. I am just sad that Marx took so many millions of lives for a ride when he concocted his prophetic belief. Indian marxists don’t think religions are important as they are false. Unfortunately they don’t even know their’s is one too. LoL

          • Skeptic

            Savarkar’s plea to free him and his promise to serve the british after his release shows intentions and his sycophancy. His petition also shows that he wanted to weaken the armed struggle against the british. Bhagat Singh was a marxist and he framed his association (HSRA) under soviet socialist principles. Atleast I draw inspiration from him and not from CPM politburo members. capital punishment is debated by many crimnal psychologists all over the world. Read about Psychologist James Giligan. Capital punishment does no good to control crime or terrorism. It is assumed to be a deterrent but it does not deter.

            Agriculture might have been considered a myth in hunter gatherer societies. Industrial revolution was a myth in agrarian societies. Slavery was myth in Serfdom. Democracy was a myth in monarchy. men and women had equal status in bushmen tribes, and even in paris commune society.

            Women were/are taken away from their homes after marriages even when they did not/do not want to live in an alien house. Was that policy ever democratically taken including young women? If not, then what kind of justice do you do in your society?

            “Even chimpanzees have an alpha male and few females” So what? many species have incest, many species have cannibalism.

            “Hired labour gets paid and thats it” Who, when and how was that theory adopted? Was it adopted democratically? From where did they get so much money to pay others? How Industrial states evolved? How did industrial states England, France, Spain originated, got so much wealth to pay wages and carry out industrial plants and experiments? It has much to do with the looted merchantile wealth from India and other colonies. You know that history.

            “So feeding/clothing/livelihood are not the responsibility of entire
            humanity. That is the point of individual freedom. So nobody owes you
            anything. There is no brotherhood either” here your philanthropic -vasudhaiva-kuntumbakam-bubble bursts! here you abandon your collectivistic hindu ideology to and seduce yourself with the nasty individualism of the west. I am sure you have been tutored by libtards for this theory. I can draw parallels with your logic and them.

            “You cannot compel your brothers/relatives at gun-point to get what you want” Only corporates are allowed to take land, forests and others’ resources at gun point. And only Maharajas had the rights to take everything at swords point in Ashwamedha.

            Much is yet to be known about Stalin/Mao. I have offered you a good reading by Anna Louise Strong. Read it completely and then we will talk.

            “Monarchy in India needed consent of the people, otherwise the King’s life is at risk” What a joke!

            Whether a woman will burn or not matter less, the most important question is why should she give a “pariksha” to prove her purity?

            “Gambling in mahabharata is always condemned and nobody is taking that as role model” That is why even pandavas played it even at the cost of their wife’s dignity?

            “Ekalvya was a Nishada prince (monarchy is ok ?) just like Nala. Every
            teacher has the right to select the student he wishes. Whatever Ekalvya
            learnt, he misused on a helpless dog. This proved he did not cultivate
            the mind but just technique” Cooked up story! Lies are built upon lies.

            “child marriage was an adaptation” another lie. I have seen what kind of adaptation it is in my own village. Sheer nonsense!

            “By the way who are you to say when a boy/girl has to marry ?” Exactly my question. let the girl decide for herself. Why millions of girls are forced by their parents to get them married early?

            “Karl Marx was a Jew and Jew have recorded the “Mazdakite” movement in 4th or 5th century Persia which had all the ideals of communism” What kind of movement it was? Explain its tenets.

            “Zoroastrian religion has light and dark at war for eons in the heavens
            that is also played out in the world, the war will end in future with
            the victory for light and there will be lasting paradise on earth” So what? No marxist ascribes to such nonsense!

            “I am just sad that Marx took so many millions of lives for a ride when he concocted his prophetic belief” Lame strawman, ad-hominem approach

          • gk

            Do you have any evidence to prove that Savarkar actually implement his promises ? It was just a ploy to get out from Kalapani where he was sentenced for 50 years, again Bhagat singh published works of Savarkar. Psychologists are experts in nothing. They stopped calling homosexuality as a disease when the tide turned against them without any actual study. Capital punishment deters criminals We can make an argument that any kind of punishment is not deterrent. We know the Left is against it only in India and not in China,Russia, Cambodia, Cuba etc. They want to perform their political murders more freely in India. Once they take control, they will implement capital punishment legally.
            Human equality is a fantasy, political rights are more realistic and exist only by mutual agreement. Women and men will have rights according to their abilities and needs even by your logic. When men were more essential, they were in control. You keep going back to ‘ideal tribes’ argument. First of all they are ‘bushmen’ and not ‘bushpeople’. Among them men hunt predominantly, so much for equality. Of course women decided to go to their husbands. That was the point in Chimpanzee example where females live with one male when it is responsible for security, control of feeding grounds. You keep making illogical digressions about incest and what not. By communists standards why is that a problem, after all communists want to abolish family and any kind of paternal relationship.
            If a man starts business using looted wealth, why should a labourer work for him ? Does he not have ethics. A factory labourer already has destroyed the dignity of a professional by doing expendable repetitive jobs assigned to him. If the owner can get the job done by a robot/animal he will do it. That is the nature of an industry. So one must not depend on such institutions for livelihood needs in the long term. West justified its hegemony and relevance by propagating this model onto the whole world as the sole model of progress. There are plenty of Hindus who would also question agnipariksha, gambling episode etc. Hindus don’t pretend that everything was good all the time. We have no problem calling out what is wrong unlike communists who murder millions and point to another communist writer as if she is going to be objective. You claim mahabharatha is myth not history, but Ekalvya episode is supposed to reflect reality. When I provide the correct larger context, you dismiss that a lie. Are you saying you will take a part of story out of context because you can twist it for your own ends, but would call the full story a lie ? I can get this kind of wisdom only from communists. Both boy and girl can decide when to marry, why does the state/commune have to set age of marriage, consent and register marriage, can’t the man and woman manage their own affairs. You can find what Mazdakite is by searching the internet. You call other’s philosophies lies, but when your own is criticized you call it

          • Skeptic

            Savarkar gave a call to hindus to join the armed forces of british to help them in world war 2, even against Bose’s Indian National Army. Capital punishment does not deter terrorists like suicide bombers. The theories of rewards and punishments goes back to skinnerian behaviorism which has been challenged by many scholars. That is why the concept of competition also has been questioned scientifically.
            “Women and men will have rights according to their abilities and needs even by your logic” I agree, but how will it decided that is the bigger question. Let it happen democratically, not on the whims of patriarchs.
            “First of all they are ‘bushmen’ and not ‘bushpeople’.” True. That is a common term for Ju/’hoansi tribe of Kalahari. Men and women both go for hunting in these tribe. Yes, men go for hunting more often than women but their economy is more driven by gathering and not by hunting which is predominantly performed by women. The child rearing is taken up by both males and females. Let the women decide where they want to live, with their parents, or with husbands or alone. The patriarchs must not make rules for them. Chimpanzee argument is not useful as the generality can be drawn for even entire human society, let alone all the animal species.

            Family is the extension of private property.

            “If a man starts business using looted wealth, why should a labourer work for him ? Does he not have ethics”. You say that as if the worker has any choice other than that. That is why workers must unite to overthrow the business class.

            “A human wants to control his choices and make networks, groups to fulfull his needs” That is what we talk about. Capitalism is against that.

            “He does not wisth to be enslaved to some collectivist hive”. Nobody gets enslaved in communism as communism is a stateless condition.

            “There are plenty of Hindus who would also question agnipariksha,
            gambling episode etc. Hindus don’t pretend that everything was good all
            the time.” Please do it more often. Start a campaign for them.

            Mahabhrata was a myth. But I was pointing out that even in your myths, you upload new myths.

            Ofcourse boys and girls should decide when to marry when the concept of marriage and family still exists otherwise the patriarchal fathers, uncles would enforce their will. But in communism, the family and marriage doesnt exist. So its useless to think about it in communism.

            About communist killings, I am open for a new discussion on it. New evidences show that the soviet famine was never intentional. Even the most significant researcher of USA, Arch Getty who worked most extensively on Soviet history has concluded that the purges occured but not as a result of Stalin’s wishes but as a result of over all chaos. Also, it has been found that Stalin was not an athoritarian leader. Most of the decisions were not taken by him as he remained absent from his office for months. So, it is contradictory to assume that a leader who remains absent for months would micromanage all affairs of the state.

            I have seen many hindus talk in favor of Israel’s policies, and Savarkar himself was in favor of Israel’s Jewish State. So, it is clear who dreams more about about a jewish agenda.

          • gk

            Communists were supporting the British then, so was Ambedkar. I mean why always single out Hindus. If internationalism based on imported alien morals is a good thing, how is striving for certain traditional values in India a bad thing. Communists have killed millions of people but claim Hindus are fascists. The truth is they fear Hindus understanding their roots and solving their own problems. That is what independence is supposed to mean. It is not about importing readymade ideological solutions marketed in the West like the communists and totally rejecting tradition.
            You keep defending some tribal but they have families. Isn’t that private property then ? Why should only men hunt and risk ? Why don’t you teach women to hunt ? Why don’t you teach fisherwomen to go into the sea for fishing and risk their lives ? Why should only men rist their life at seas, how is that equality. I have never seen communists wanting women to hunt and fish at the high seas risking their lives. I guess that doesn’t get covered in Marxist syllabus. The concept of gender inequality exists in many mammals. Lions, Chimps, dogs mark their territory and guard their turf. That is private property. So it is not some invention of sick humans. Why marxism only applies to homo sapiens and not bees, ants, herds of wild animals, birds etc. Hindu values of charity, kindness are not fascist, fundamentalist like communism where people who don’t accept the communist morals are finished off.
            Mahabharatha is an elaborate tale of something that happened in the past. How much of that is real is just a subject for speculation. Calling it a myth is just dismissing something with Judeochristian lens that doesn’t allow Jesus to be called mythical. So you don’t even bother to understand the whole context of Ekalvya and never bothered to objectively verify what the missionary/marxist cherry picked rendition informs you. When challenged you cannot even accept your mistake and move on.
            You want to be open on communist mass murder and a debate. How convenient when you are the accused, you don’t offer the same latitude to your opponents over the false accusations you heap on them. Yeah Stalin never did it, Mao was a like Buddha, Lenin will rise from the dead the day world communist government will be formed. I get it.
            Most of bolsheviks were Jews. People support Jewishs state because they believe they have been historically wronged. They may not be completely right, but communists are the last people who could take moral high ground when they support Jihadists to break up Kashmir from India.

          • Skeptic

            In India, I draw my inspiration about marxism entirely from Bhagat Singh. Earlier I was just an athiest, but reading his notes on marxism, I turned into one. So, if you can have any evidence about Singh’s association with British, then tell me. Communists killings have not been properly addressed in light of academic research. So, unless you come up with a dialectical analysis, I would not agree on the accusations. Traditions are not always good.
            I have already mentioned that even females also go for hunting in a hunter & gatherer society. However, hunting is a less significant contributor to their economy compared to gathering. Since, gathering is more significant than hunting, its irrelevant to talk about why only men should hunt.
            “The concept of gender inequality exists in many mammals”. Again you are mistaken. The problem is not with inequality. The problem is with the inequality of privileges that women and men get in a society inspite of their equivalent amount of contributions 9sometimes women’s contribution is much more)
            “Lions, Chimps, dogs mark their territory and guard their turf”. But there are birds, fishes (particularly migratory birds and fishes), amoeba, bacteria, fungi, porifera, molluscs, ants, bees, beetles, termites, cocroaches and plants who do not mark their territory. There is much more cooperation in animals than superficial competition which is presented in popular media to reinforce the capitalist narrative. For better understanding read No Contest: the case against competition by Alfie Kohn. Marxism is found in animals and your capitalist author Ayn Rand has herself In 1934, in her novel “We the Living”, described Soviet Union as a “huge pile of cockroaches”. Although she did so out of hatred against communism bred in her orthodox mind that had developed in a Rural Aristocratic Russian family, this label given by her can be seen as a highest certificate of cooperation in a human society. It’s the social insects, viz. cockroaches, ants, bees, wasps etc. that we must look at to learn about a more perfect form of social living. We may, as well, look at the cells of our body too, and see how beautifully and economically they utilise the absorbed nutrients and work inperfect unison, without competing with each other.
            The acts of kindness and charity cannot be copyrighted by hindus, muslims or christians. Many atheists express such acts.We need no religion to learn generosity. Altruism is inbuilt in human nature. For more read this article http://www.alfiekohn.org/article/religious-people-help-youd-notice/.
            Stories of Mahabharata as well as bible are all fiction.
            I want India, Pakistan and Bangladesh to reunite. Until that happens, AFSPA must be repealed from all states.

          • Shriraj Chavda

            Gk you u f–k in air

  • there is nothing in his speech to suggest that he justifies the 1984 riots against the Sikhs! what he means to say is that they were neither pre-planned nor organized and executed with such finesse as the Gujarat pogrom of 2002; moreover, whereas the former were instantaneous and momentary, the latter was a continuation of a sustained campaign with a political motive by a fascist organization,right since its inception, against a particular community ; it was not an isolated incident; it was carried out so meticulously as a lab test on the body politic. this is what Kanhaiya means when he wants us to have a sense of history while studying such occurrences; though, such comparisons may appear to be uncalled for at this juncture!

    • gk

      Jihadis have been killing millions of non-muslims (Hindus/Buddhists/Atheists/Christians) for the last 1400 years in India. Who is against who ? A group that does not even believe in freedom of worship is the real fascist and much more. Communists calling others as fascists/Hitler is a rebuke for not killing upto the standards of Communist mass murderers.. They should try to be like communists by killing tens of millons of people like the Jihadis instead of fascists like Hitler. Where is the evidence that state sponsored the Gujarat riots. The state of Gujarat effectively killed many hundred rioting Hindus. The state of Gujarat asked for army’s help from Congress ruled states and they refused. So you must be referring to the congress state sponsored riots. All your propaganda and lies will not work in the age of social media.

      • Skeptic

        There are scores of videos where people like Babu Bajrangi boasts about killing muslims and praises modi govt for allowing them. About communist killings, do read writings of an american journalist, Anna Louise Strong who gave first hand reports of what happened in Soviet Union and China in those times. So such accounts are more unbiased and more reliable compared to the secondary sources.

      • Skeptic

        Former President K R Narayanan said:

        “There was governmental and administrative
        support for the communal riots in Gujarat. I gave several letters to
        Prime Minister Vajpayee in this regard on this issue. I met him
        personally and talked to him directly. But Vajapyee did not do anything
        effective.

        I requested him to send the army to Gujarat and suppress the riots.
        The Centre had the Constitutional responsibility and powers to send the
        military if the state governments asked. The military was sent, but they
        were not given powers to shoot. If the military was given powers to
        shoot at the perpetrators of violence, recurrence of tragedies in
        Gujarat could have been avoided.

        However, both the state and central government did not do so. Had the
        military been given powers to shoot, the carnage in Gujarat could have
        been avoided to a great extent. I feel there was a conspiracy involving
        the state and central governments behind the Gujarat riots”.

  • Tapas Chatterjee

    You people in the garb of student leaders are not only vitiating JNU but also spreading venom of anti- national discourses. I condemn you and the sooner you are unmasked to true colours of antisocial in guise of students, the better of this country.

    • Skeptic

      More adjectives, lesser rationality

  • Tapas Chatterjee

    JNU has become a den of activities which destroys everything academic and progressive. These student leaders are all converted to professional politicians with the single ambition to destroy institutions of higher education with ulterior designs of destability. To hell with you.

    • Skeptic

      using more adjectives in arguments doesn’t make them rational.

  • AYAN

    Hmm… you can only think, dream, sleep and eat ‘Akhlaq’s murder’. The brutal murders of RSS workers in Kerala and Karnataka by your commie friends, the murder of Dr. Narang by goons of your favourite community, the violence by 2 lac radicals in Malda and innumerable Jihadi terrorist activities in the country and world does not shake your conscience a bit ! Why should the common person on the street not have Islamophobia ? The bombs that rip apart their flesh and limbs do not go off on your pristine subsidized and secure JNU campus. That’s why you do not get the jitters…

    • Skeptic

      1) Feudalism (RSS) vs Communism is an ongoing war for ages.
      2) Dr. Narang was murdered by a mod which consisted of 5 hindus as well.
      3) Talk about innumerable criminal activities of Bajrang dal.
      4)Common people do have Islamophobia. I have talked to several people during the 2014 elections, many of whom said that its good that Modi will come to power, muslims will remain submissive.
      5) am not from JNU.

      • gk

        1) RSS has nothing to do with feudalism, in fact feudalism came to India through British. Communism killed tens of millions of poor people in just a century. When you make a point, try to use language that is concise and unambiguous. The war between robbers and civil society has been going on for ages.
        2)How do you know that there were 5 Hindus. The lady officer who tweeted was on leave and was not even part of the investigation. So your source is debunked. When was the last time somebody was killed for celebrating Indian Cricket victory. Is the mob not intolerant ?
        3) Indian communists killed 50000 people in West Bengal and Kerala in the last few decades. The number of poor people killed by Maoists is really not known. Now talk about these, be accountable and then also talk about Bajrang Dal and what not.
        4) Common people have Jehadiphobia. Islamism is not compatible with modern world so is communism. It is funny how communists are happy colluding with Islamic right across the world. If they go to Islamic State of Pakistan of the Islamic State of Syria and IraQ, they will be slaughtered first.

        • Skeptic

          1) RSS maintains the comprador mentality. Read the petition of Savarkar to the british govt while he was in jail. Apart from that it also vows to maintain the age old inequality in human relations prevailing in society in feudal times and even in monarchic times. Robbers are the monarchs, imperialists, comprador bourgeoisie (congress and bjp).
          2) How did you know the mob consisted of muslims either?
          3) Poor people in jungle areas have killed more by salwa judum and state forces for the sake of corporate forces.
          4) I Agree that islam is not compatible with modern world, neither is hinduism and christianity. Athiesm is more compatible. Communism includes athiesm and it is more compatible with modern values. The modern values proposed by capitalism (commodity fetishism) has been proven unsustainable for society as well as environment.

          • gk

            1) Human beings are not equal by birth and they become more unequal by their choices in life. Political rights/individual freedom are separate issues have nothing to do with equality. Freedom creates inequality. Human society is always hierarchical even in communist dictatorships. Fidel Castro trusts his ‘brother’ Raul more than any ‘comrade’ let alone fellow Cuban. Is that feudal or modern. North Korean dictator is 3rd successor in a family. Is that feudal or modern ? Monarchs, democratic leaders, dictators all can be robbers. Political systems fantasized by West expects “ideal humans” who don’t exist. So they want indoctrination/propaganda to achieve their goals. This includes communists too. Human being never had a common identity throughout known human history but always have had private property/private as well as social capital. Society by definition includes some and excludes others as all human groups. This is natural and nothing abnormal.
            2) The issue is not Musliims, but illegal Bangladeshi muslims who could not tolerate their nations loss in cricket.
            3) Zamindari system was created by British, forest resources were appropriated by British. Forest dwellers lost their right to the British. Indian state did not remedy this. Now the corporates through corrupt bureaucracy are exploiting further.
            4) Hinduism is the one of most progressive sustainable framework that exists. Capitalism/Communism are just flavours of materialism which is a perspective of Western atheism. Buddhism/Jainism are atheist too but they are not materialists like communists.
            Modernity was created by slavery, colonization, industrialization for the sake of few European elites. It is sustained through the creation myth of modernity. Communism is a reaction to this. It cannot be modern. Neither is it progressive. It appears so because of its anti-capitalist stance. On its own it cannot sustain itself. Capitalists, anarcho-capitalists, libertarians are atheists too. Industrial economy necessitates large economies with millions of people for success, if it is unnecessary, they we only need sustainable city states. No reactionary communism/universal/human morality needed.

          • Skeptic

            1) Humans are not equal by birth. Its true that their diverse, their talents are diverse but that diversity should not create unequal opportunities and unequal privileges. We are only concerned with the unequal privileges in society due to classism, casteism and competition whatso-ever. we had no communism in any society. Soviet union, china, cuba were all striving towards communism but they were not communist societies. Communism means anarchism where there is no heirarchy. Communism/anarchism must be reached through a working class struggle. So these were all struggles and in struggle we have still the remnants of past societies. We have to fight with all sorts of inequalities even in the societies which are socialist in practise. Its an ongoing struggle and we acknowledge that fascists tendencies occur even in these societies and we will deal with them, but its still one step ahead. Private property has been absent in many tribal societies (read anthropology). What is natural is not necessarily acceptable. Tsunamis, earthquakes, floods are all natural but we have created structures to protect us from them (an artificial system).

            2) Irrelevant

            3) I agree

            4) Hinduism is the most progressive framework? where? Has it allowed the carvak philosophy (atheist philosophy) to co-exist with vedas?

            materialist philosophy is required to be adopted first to address the materialist question which is the prime question today (unequal access to resources). However, non-materialist philosphies would be required later. Thats why Ambedkar has associated Buddha with Marx. I acknowledge this inclusion in marxist theories.
            Communism is against all kinds of oppression. So its progressive. Find me more proggressive thoughts.
            Capitalists, anarcho-capitalists, libertarians are atheists too but are still limited in view.

            Industrial economy necessitates large economies with millions of people
            for success, if it is unnecessary, they we only need sustainable city
            states. But how will you achieve that without a proletarian revolution? I was a member of such sustainable society movement (the venus project) but got disillusioned from it because it has no plans for transition to such economy.

          • gk

            1) Making unequal people equal is another kind of oppression. It also needs a class of elites who have higher authority than the rest of equals like communist dictators. Of course there are instances where power, position is abused. That should be attacked. But saying that hierarchy in itself is abusive is misleading. It implies that humans cannot organize themselves beyond communal villages and hence must be restricted to that. Humans do not have same needs so they will not be satisfied with equal outcomes. Equal opportunity is realistic only for basic needs like livelihood, primary education etc. Even so called tribal societies have hierarchies, hereditary priests etc. They have communal ownership of produce because they hunt/cultivate together. If another tribe encroaches their “communal property” like hunting ground, cattle, water, land there will only be conflict. The first community that has hunting ground, cattle cannot share it with new nomads and become half-nomads in the process. What is natural is not necessarily evil. Human groups are not always conspiring to oppress others. They are trying to sustain their ways of life and pass the good legacy of their ancestors to future generations most of the time. This sometimes plays out as suppressing others who are seen as threat.
            4) Hinduism does not advocate murder of those who disagree with it like communists, Abrahamic religions. In Hinduism all human/non human qualities/ differences are temporary and are not ‘real’ nature of the self. Human nature/status/varna/jati/gender are temporary and hence any sense of superiority owing to these are plain stupid. Principles in Hinduism are sufficient to make the wealthy voluntarily distribute wealth and this happened in the past. You can refer to Alberuni. Hinduism does not support reckless fiat capitalism. Communists misaddress problems of fiat currency and fractional reserve banking as capitalism only because West has legalised fiat currency as sole medium of exchange. Materialism is the belief that fundamental reality is unconscious but still behaves according to ‘universal perpetual natural laws’ for eternity. This is just a religious belief. From this is the derived principle of randomness/chance. There is enough room for disagreement in Hinduism. Why should Vedas accept materialism. Plenty of divergent views coexist in Bharat, Charavaka philosophy cannot survive without capitalistic/communist enclaves which are themselves limited by the flaws in their perspectives. Over many generations, resources dwindle leading to death of reckless capitalism. Over generations, groups get fragmented and communism will also collapse. Then you will need violent suppression, indoctrination to maintain communism.
            Individual charvakas are more obsessed with self gratification and other bodily pursuits. Capitalism merely enables and exploits this.

          • Skeptic

            1) Hierarchy like class and caste are abusive and only communists have attacked them. Tribals like bushmen did have hierarchy but that was non- exploitative. They have had headmen whom they kept only for guidance. He never excercised power over the clan. You said, “It implies that humans cannot organize themselves beyond communal villages and hence must be restricted to that”. No we never implied that. Read about the Soviet developments in its initial period. You said, Humans do not have same needs so they will not be satisfied with equal outcomes”. Hence Marx said: “To each according to his needs and to each according to his abilities”. You said: “Equal opportunity is realistic only for basic needs like livelihood, primary education etc” Thats is what we are fighting for. Have human history achieved this under capitalism or hinduism? And that is what materialism means. Materialism is not an end but it should be the beginning. If we cannot provide this for all humans, all your spirituality talk becomes hoax and reactionary. Your Vivekananda himself said: “I do not believe in a God or religion which cannot wipe the widow’s tears or bring a piece of bread to the orphan’s mouth.”
            You said, “If another tribe encroaches their “communal property” like hunting ground, cattle, water, land there will only be conflict. The first community that has hunting ground, cattle cannot share it with new nomads and become half-nomads in the process”. Perhaps communal ownership for entire world was not possible at that time. But in today’ s moder technological world where 60 % of jobs can be automated and where the entire world is already integrated through internet and when many philosophers have already advised us for world unity, even your own philosophy ” vasudhaiva kutumbakam” must not remain mere lip service. What is natural is not necessarily evil. “Human groups are not always conspiring to oppress others. They are trying to sustain their ways of life and pass the good legacy of their ancestors to future generations most of the time”. Even we believe that thats why we can believe in communism. “This sometimes plays out as suppressing others who are seen as threat”. This has happened even in soviet union, china and bengal and we have to outgrow it, just like we have outgrown incest and cannibalism and slavery.
            4)Hinduism does not advocate murder of those who disagree with it then why were dalits killed for entering into temples? and punished for making love to higher caste women?
            “It is most progressive when it says that the individual self can move from unconscious, semi-conscious to supreme conscious states through ‘voluntary’ action. This is real progress aka spiritual progress that happens across many births. It does not impose arbitrary list of desires as human rights/moral values on all humans that have to be achieved before a future even through violence” Again its mere lip service and never manifested in large proportions in the history of hindu society. What is known is only wars among hindu rajas, ashwamedha type expantionist policies, sati pratha, child marriage, and the dirty caste system. Charity is not the best way to develop society. Even Islam talks about that. It does not change the human relations to the core. So its a very superficial change infact. Charvaka was suppressed long before capitalism and communism originated. You have all the powers today. You have RSS pracharak as the PM. Why dont you remove the fractional reserve banking practices and fiat currency and prevailing materialism from India? On the contrary the style of development that your BJP promotes is nothing but ugly materialism, and that also for limited number of people. Sorry but I have to say that all the goodness you talk about hinduism is mere lip service.

          • gk

            Many of the so called tribals engage in war, conquest, murder and some even cannibalism. Moreover most have hereditary leadership, hereditary priesthood. Because Marxian utopia is fashioned upon some ideal blissful pastoral past (like christianity’s Garden of Eden where lion and deer live amicably) that humanity needs to return to, Marxists have incorporated medieval romanticism for tribes. When somebody needs more than everybody else today, many are not going to have what they need in the future. Besides everybody is trying to get his/her needs already, why Marxists want to play the supervisor and become new elite class. Wherever communism has been successful, they have only replaced the old elites to become new elites themselves with all the abuse of power. ‘Communal ownership of the entire world’ really ? Why should people get ownership just because they are born and happen to be alive ? You have to work or inherit through your parents. Besides, world is not for humans alone and what about communal ownership with animals, plants and trees ? In future, a new species might arise that will destroy all humans. It is funny Marxists want to break India into pieces all the while wanting to create a one world government. Kanhaiya, Umar Khalid and comrades want to promote a xenophobic pseudo-nationalist fascist Kashmiri state all the while dreaming about one world proletarian government. Unity does not mean uniformity. It does not need a authoritarian control structure and planned economy of human hives. World can get united for some reasons and can go their own way for others. We have not outgrown anything. That grand delusion is an outcome of the false history of linear progress of humanity. Every human needs good social values to be programmed. That is called culture and if that degenerates humans will repeat the same mistakes. It is the reason civilizations got destroyed repeatedly. History repeats precisely due to this reason.
            4. Caste strife is a big problem in Hinduism especially in post-colonial decapitalized, dispossessed Hindu society. Hindus have greatly failed by not bringing Dalits into temples. But that kind of reform has already been attempted in the past like Ramanuja, Basava etc. If we go through literature, many instances can be seen when inter jati, inter varna marriages took place. There is no fatwa against that. But every jati definitely does not want to lose its identity even now including so called Dalit castes. Hinduism has remedy for casteism, which is the emphasis on original nature of self and a movement for harmony based on higher truths rather than transient caste/linguistic/gender identities. Marxists are selling superstitions of dialectical materialism, human equality, perpetual casteless utopia in future for humans alone. To achieve their goal of peaceful harmonious future, marxists want to go on reckless mass murder. So what Hinduism advocates is more non-violent and reasonable. Charvakas were suppressed ? Was there a Charavaka political theory, state in existence. Indian charvakas never came up with any new technology/scientific breakthrough. Individuals will live and wither away. Reactionary elements will not survive many generations. Nobody in BJP/RSS seem to be interested in taking on the fiat currency fractional banking wealth sucking machine. That is because most of the population is not aware of the issue. The entire foundation of Western capitalism is based on fractional reserve lending. Marxists are not aware. That was my point. Marx wanted credit to be centralized. He made the labour theory of money . But money was created through central banking and printing money out of thin air through fractional lending (Communists nations have to trade with non-communist nations even if they outlaw currency). He attacked the borrowers of capital not the real cultivators of capital and the method of cultivation (making money out of thin air through loans). This is a big flaw or fraud depending on the ignorance of Marx about bankers.
            All philosophies are lip service if not brought to life. Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba, Cambodia, liberal Europe. So many failures. One generation of liberal socialism has put European countries at risk of slow annihilation. They are now forced to import people who are the antithesis of a ‘liberal socialist’ society. All this in a century of Marxist social experiment. Marxism seems to be a lip service to me. When followers of dictators like Stalin, Mao are allying with Jihadis and trying to undermine and denigrate any Hindu political space as fascist, Hindus cannot transform overnight. Hindus don’t have their temples, laws under their control but under the control of colonized deracinated satellites of the West. But we will achieve our goal by the grace of the One.

          • Skeptic

            1) About tribals, go through this website. https://cas.uab.edu/peacefulsocieties/societies/

            “”Because Marxian utopia is fashioned upon some ideal blissful pastoral
            past (like christianity’s Garden of Eden where lion and deer live
            amicably) that humanity needs to return to. Marxists have incorporated medieval romanticism for tribes.”…..sheer nonsense! with no evidence.

            “When somebody needs more than everybody else today”. Needs and wants are different. Wants are contrived by advertisements and socialization of power.

            “many are not going to have what they need in the future”…Exactly, that is what everyone should think about. How is capitalism going to solve this paradox? Only communist literature can handle this problem and the economic anthropology is an addition to it. read Marshall Sahlin’s original affluent society.

            “Besides everybody is trying to get his/her needs already”…are everybody getting what they need?

            “why Marxists want to play the supervisor and become new elite class”…where? In paris commune workers were given the rights to take over and run enterprise. The commune leaders did not take salaries. abolition of interest on the debts was implemented.

            “Why should people get ownership just because they are born and happen to be alive ?” Exactly, why should Ambanis and Adanis should get the ownership over land and forests ?

            “You have to work” yes, you have to work and in socialist countries, everyone works.

            “You have to work or inherit through your parents” Disagree! This is contradictory to the above argument “you have to work”. All inheritance of property must go away

            “Besides, world is not for humans alone and what about communal ownership with animals, plants and trees ?” We have dealt with this in a sustainable project called “the zeitgeist movement”

            ” It is funny Marxists want to break India into pieces all the while wanting to create a one world government” marxists are not interested in national boundaries. They talk about internationalism. Same as your ‘vasudhaiva kutumbakam” but contrary to your lip service, we work on our ideals. We dont want any world government as communism is anarchism which is devoid of state.

            2) Why don’t you practise inter-caste marriages today? You should run a public campaign on inter-caste marriages. I have done inter-caste marriage. I have changed the attitude of my reactionary parents. Why can’t you? If you simply give lip service, it won’t help the society.

            ‘To achieve their goal of peaceful harmonious future, marxists want to go on reckless mass murder’. False. Communists do not intend to murder anyone. Since, socialism is built on class struggle, a reaction from the elite class is bound to happen whenever we talk of removing inequality. This reaction brings brutality from both sides. remember that such brutality also existed when the lands, resources were taken up forcefully from working class, tribals and natives. It must again go back. So, its a long struggle that is continuing. All murders must be understood from that framework. If the elite class peacefully gives those resources back, everything will go peacefully.

            “Indian charvakas never came up with any new technology/scientific breakthrough” How did you know? You must have destroyed all its sources of information.

            “Nobody in BJP/RSS seem to be interested in taking on the fiat currency
            fractional banking wealth sucking machine. That is because most of the
            population is not aware of the issue. The entire foundation of Western
            capitalism is based on fractional reserve lending” That is true to some extent. But marxists are aware of this issue. The Zeitgeist Movement has released three movies on these issues. I have worked in that movement for 5 years. Marx gave the labour theory of value (not money), and theory of surplus value. He talked about ownership of means of production. Since money must acquire value from labour, it finally boils down to labour. Yes communists nations have to trade with non-communist nations even if they outlaw currency, I agree, hence the entire world must become communist.

            I reiterate, I am not for the jihadists.

          • gk

            If Marxists do not respect national boundaries, then they should not usurp state resources like JNU dishonestly like termites. Elite abuse is true in many cases. The opposite is also true. You are claiming that a man will be dishonest with property and honest without property which would again imply that humans cannot be trusted with their freedom. A person will decide if he/she needs something not strangers ? Who wants a paternal state ? People would like to take control of their lives more. Communists believe that everybody will think alike and live together for no reason. Human inequality is not some conspiracy by elites. Humans are born because of their parent choose to have them. Where are the elites here ? Why should others be made responsible for somebodys whim to have children ? If anything elites do not want people to have children. Nobody has to share their property with you. Of course one can raise a mob and rob people and ‘redistribute wealth’. But there is nothing right about it. It just establishes that certain humans demonstrated power inequality in a different way through violence. You always make contradictory claims of ‘natives, workers, tribals’ having private resources in the past that deserves to be returned, but also talk about abolishing private property and inheritance. tribals, nations have claim over resources by collective inheritance. Even a commune that a group builds cannot be overrun by strangers in future. The members of the commune will decide who has to be admitted and who should not and when. That is a exercise of ownership and property. Vasudeiva kudumbakam means many things and definitely not infinite involuntary charity. You assume all wealth is stolen and all have nots as robbed. This is a false generalization. If it suits you, you can claim Charvakas invented many things in history but were destroyed by Hindus. But how did you know that in the first place ? You cannot pull some claim out of some magic hat. But you will not entertain that many things from Bharat were stolen/destroyed by British even if there is evidence.
            I married within my caste because it suited me and there was no reason to marry outside of my caste. There is nothing wrong with that and I have nothing to prove. What needs to go away is discrimination, economic deprivation etc. People can have as many identities as they want. That is the essence of diverse humanity.

          • Skeptic

            National boundaries have been forced by each industrial state. So, there is little we can do. It was never a democratic decision. So, we simply accept it as a coercion. I dont find any dishonesty in JNU. They contribute more than you and I. They bring up those social questions which can tremble even media and scholars. They are ingenious, courageous and devoted to people of society.
            “A person will decide if he/she needs something not strangers ?” Doesn’t matter when needs are a house, decent clothing and nutritious food and simple articles needed at home. Not when the needs are like mansions, estates, islands, diamonds and yachts. Many people’s toil and blood are involved behind such reckless needs.

            Who wants a paternal state ? People would like to take control of their lives more. Agree. Communism is a stateless society.

            “Humans are born because of their parent choose to have them” -Their parents belong to different classes. hence a child’s birth also decides the caste as well as class.

            No ownership evolved in the world democratically. Either through wars, or conflicts, or through cheating or robbery, or through state coercion. Nothing was right there too. tribals never had private ownership. They have had collective ownership over land. There is nothing contradiction in it. Tribals lands must be returned to them and the factories must be returned to the labours. The means of production must go back to producers. Ambanis and Mallyas are no producers.

            “Even a commune that a group builds cannot be overrun by strangers in
            future. The members of the commune will decide who has to be admitted
            and who should not and when.” I agree. But if that commune was built by displacing the natives then it must be returned to the natives. The Americans eradicated the natives to build their nation. That was wrong. the Australian aborigines were eradicated to build colonies. That was wrong.

            Surely all wealth is not stolen. but we know which are.

            About charvakas, many facts have come out from the vedas itself. They tried to criticize them and unfortunately opened up new facts for us to ponder upon.

            “But you will not entertain that many things from Bharat were stolen/destroyed by British even if there is evidence” we do acknowledge that. Indian workers and artists produced many great things which europeans have used and named after them. I have already mentioned that European revolution was built on the hard labour of colonies like India. The things which I dont believe are the fictitious stories of ancient India like intersteller planes, plastic surgery and all.
            Caste should not exist even as identity.

          • gk

            Nations existed even before industrial revolution, borders exist among predators, apes etc. Nothing new, abnormal. Parents make a choice to bring a human into this world. Why blame others, blame the parents who cannot afford the lifestyle, food one needs. Democracy in itself is a exercise of force by counting heads instead of discussing and arriving at a consensus. If a hunter is hungry, he goes and finds food, he does not have to worry if he should really hunt just because somebody else doesn’t know or couldn’t. A human has to take care of himself. Ownership of property is the foundation of trade and hence civilization. Otherwise we would be stuck in stone age constantly trying to steal from each other. Western capitalism and communism both are flawed. Communism was invented to destabilize enemy nations and even US is using that against India now. So Adani, Ambani don’t necessitate communism. By communist logic, Tribals should not own anything, why collective ownership of a group is good. They don’t share their resources with outsiders who are weak, but complain when attacked by corporates. By your logic, tribals should be allowed to evolve at their own idyllic pace but dwellers in cities, towns and villages must be murdered to create communist utopia. Even scientists in late nineteenth century did not believe human flight is possible. Whatever has been described in ithihasas need not be equated to modern aircraft relying on western science. Again the belief that western science explains everything and is the sole objective view of reality is just another superstitious religion. One does not have to believe in vimanas until somebody can demostrate the possibility. British learnt plastic surgery especially reconstruction of nose from colonial India and there is evidence in literature. Sushruta, Charaka had great treatises on medicine and Bharat was well advance in medicine using natural non-chemical remedies. Much of these have been lost due to decapitalization of Ayurveda, Siddha systems during colonization.

          • Skeptic

            Borders existed long ago, so do many other evils. Its the border that necessitates wars and enormous amounts of military spending. As long as wars will continue, we can’t say that humans have evolved for good. So, even if is a natural trait, we have to evolve out of it.
            ” blame the parents who cannot afford the lifestyle, food one needs”. That’s a wasteful logic. That doesn’t allow us to understand the problem which is systemic in nature.
            “A human has to take care of himself”. Agree, but cooperation is more productive.
            “Ownership of property is the foundation of trade and hence civilization”. Agree, but that should not be the end. Communal ownership is the next path.
            “Otherwise we would be stuck in stone age constantly trying to steal from each other”. No. Without the concept of ownership, stealing can’t occur. And has stealing stopped?

            “Western capitalism and communism both are flawed.” Then why are you supporting capitalism?

            “Communism was invented to destabilize enemy nations and even US is using that against India now”. Logical Fallacy. Bhagat Singh alarmed us against the Indian capitalists like Adani and Ambani.

            “Tribals should not own anything, why collective ownership of a group is good. Tribals already own very little. What they own? Collective ponds, forests and small tracts of lands. These are their means of production. Just like a factory is a means of production for a labourer and a farm is a means of production for a farmer. Although, we would like them to know our ways of living and if they like our lifestyle, we would assimilate them. But we do not encroach their forests and lands with bulldozers without their permissions as capitalists and governments do today. Tribal ownership has never created problem for us. They do not own like we do. They do not pollute their rivers and ponds and do not destroy their forests as we do.

            “They don’t share their resources with outsiders who are weak”. Yes they do if they believe that their resources are not threatened.

            “By your logic, tribals should be allowed to evolve at their own idyllic
            pace but dwellers in cities, towns and villages must be murdered to
            create communist utopia” Who is murdering who? The capitalists are murdering the farmers through patents. The capitalists are murdering the factory workers by their profit schemes.

            Science is neither western nor eastern. Ancient knowledge must be proved through experimentation and rigorous methods of statistics to be acceptable. If they pass, I would accept them too.